Searching \ for '[OT]: removing numbers from chips' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: piclist.org/techref/index.htm?key=removing+numbers
Search entire site for: 'removing numbers from chips'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT]: removing numbers from chips'
2001\07\13@104717 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs.


One technique that appeals to me is encapsulation
in a plastic resin or epoxy;

* pot the whole product, good for small devices
especially automotive ones.

* pot a critical circuit or even just a PIC and
it's crystal, etc in a tiny metal can, with just
a pin header coming out. These tiny cans are cheap
and can be board mounted, you see them in many
devices now. All the user sees is the main board
with the easy stuff, the 'smart" bit is in a little
can with its own part number. Plastic cans are
available too, they look like those square
capacitors. "PIC in a can"?

* mount the smt chip(s) direct on the board, with a
big blob of epoxy over it.

I liked the nitrocellulose comment re the
decapsulation with nitric acid, maybe you could
pot your product with a small capsule of some
reactive agent enclosed. Then if someone tries
nitric acid they get a nasty "boom" to discourage
them, or maybe it just reacts and eats the metal
in the chips as well as the plastic...
Any chemists here? ;o)
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\13@121458 by Dipperstein, Michael

face picon face
>I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs.

Though I wouldn't recommend it for the home hobbyist, we patent just about
everything we can.

A well written patent can protect you from somebody developing a functional
equivalent.  That's something that concealing components can't do.

-Mike

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\13@122130 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 09:10 AM 7/13/01 -0700, Dipperstein, Michael wrote:
> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs.
>
>Though I wouldn't recommend it for the home hobbyist, we patent just about
>everything we can.
>
>A well written patent can protect you from somebody developing a functional
>equivalent.  That's something that concealing components can't do.

How does Joe Public go about this?
I've done it in a corporate setting, but that involved three steps.
1: Call patent attourney
2: Discuss idea
3: sign forms

I've never gone through, or seen the process up close.
--
Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org

I would have a link to http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?KC6ETE-9 here
in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to
differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to
have it.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\13@122947 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I understand the military does exactly that - encapsulates super secret
circuits in a material that reacts if it is exposed to air, and destroys the
circuit in side.  Any mitilary contractors out there?

-- Lawrence

{Original Message removed}

2001\07\13@171041 by Jinx
face picon face
> How does Joe Public go about this?
> I've done it in a corporate setting, but that involved three steps.

There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off
copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or
any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and
post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is
evidence that can be used to establish originality.

The second alternative is to register the design, which will take
NZ$200-$300 for the full service

Neither of the two above offer the full protection of a patent (but let's
face it, even the so-called protection of a full patent means nothing
to a fly-by-night sweatshop). They are, however, substantially less
expensive and at least show you mean business

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\13@183457 by Mike Hardwick

flavicon
face
>I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs.

One way to add some product reverse-engineering protection is to use a PLD
for logic functions external to the micro. Set its security bit(s), in
addition to the one in the micro, and then you've got two significant
hacker barriers. Of course, this only works if the design uses substantial
non-obvious logic functions...

Mike Hardwick
Decade Engineering

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\07\14@012554 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Excellent ideas, and another I have heard is
that many bank branches offer a "sealed envelope"
service in their bank vault, for a small fee they
seal your envelope of legal documents or design
papers, stamp it, witness the time and date and
store it in their vault.

As any patent is only as good as the amount of money
you spend in court defending it, systems like this
that prove the date of your design can be just as
defendable in court even if someone patents it
afterward.
-Roman

Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\14@021141 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Most of the world, and recently the USA, all use a 'first to
file' issuance of patents. Until recently you could get a USA
patent overturned by proving you invented it first (Gordon Gould
Laser patents for example. He had a notarized notebook from the
late fifties which documented lots of appications for 'coherent light'
and he got a retroactive patent on for them, decades after the laser was
'invented' by Bells labs.
This 'ambush' patent cost laser manufactures a great deal
of retroactive royalties since it was easier to pay than litigate.

In summary, a 'sealed envelope' is now next to useless for getting
or challenging a patent in the USA.

Roman Black wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\14@032505 by Jinx

face picon face
> file' issuance of patents. Until recently you could get a USA
> patent overturned by proving you invented it first (Gordon Gould
>
> In summary, a 'sealed envelope' is now next to useless for getting
> or challenging a patent in the USA.

While I can't argue the legal niceties, that does seem unfair to the
"average" inventor, who more than likely is poorly funded compared
to a corporate that can steamroller in and swipe the product merely
by dint of being able to afford the paperwork. It's a shitty old world
innit ?

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email .....listservKILLspamspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\14@044453 by Graham

flavicon
face
>While I can't argue the legal niceties, that does seem unfair to the
>"average" inventor, who more than likely is poorly funded compared
>to a corporate that can steamroller in and swipe the product merely
>by dint of being able to afford the paperwork. It's a shitty old world
>innit ?
>

well we've come a long way from scratching the number off the top of a chip :-)

people rarely invent anything anymore, merely use cash and a poorly thought
through and administered 'system', instead of gun boats, in an attempt to
claim ownership.

The patent system, as it stands, is international intellectual piracy on a
grand scale, the system originally conceived to stop piracy is now the
biggest supporter of it in fact.

Your example comes under the same category as companies that go to
developing countries and 'patent' all their traditional natural medicine
sources....and many other examples...

ie, its 'bull'.... a large portion of the world is getting fed up with it
and a patent will be worth nothing in a few years, because the blatent
abuse/exploitation of the patent system will ultimately drive the majority
to reject it's validity in both their physical territory and their ethical
values.

Both majority corporate and population opinion will be moving to an
anti-patent stance unless the patent world cleans it's act up and starts
drawing sensible distinctions between 'naturally occuring', 'discovery' ,
'invention' and 'created', the whole system is heading for collapse.

The parallel is colonisation during the 18th and 19th centuries, a lot of
territory was 'patented' and 'ownership' claimed.....eventually it ends in
tears.....patenting, when taken to extremes amounts to the same thing, and
the end result will be the same also.

We are already seeing the beginnings of it with drugs in third world*
countries , and it is apparent that the big players are aware of where this
will go if they fight their corner too hard and hence capitulated with a
compromise. This will prove to be the tip of a very big iceberg.

(*=not a label I like, but used for better general understanding)

Once something eventually loses general social acceptance, it collapses, no
matter what the lawyers and judges think, in fact eventually the elected
administration will reflect the view of its population due to political
expediancy even if not through true belief in the issue.

Graham



R.F. Professionals    http://www.rfpa.com
Radio Amateurs        http://www.rfham.com

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email EraseMElistservspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\14@052030 by mike

flavicon
face
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 00:47:01 +1000, you wrote:

>> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs.
>
>
>One technique that appeals to me is encapsulation
>in a plastic resin or epoxy;
Waste of time - normal epoxy is easy to remove with minimal damage -
unless you find something exotic (i.e expensive) that's hard to
remove, don't think potting will give you anything else but
environmental protection!
{Quote hidden}

Dremel.....
>* mount the smt chip(s) direct on the board, with a
>big blob of epoxy over it.
Easily dissolved

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\14@052045 by mike

flavicon
face
On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:10:04 -0700, you wrote:

>>I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs.
>
>Though I wouldn't recommend it for the home hobbyist, we patent just about
>everything we can.

>A well written patent can protect you from somebody developing a functional
>equivalent.  That's something that concealing components can't do.
Patents are a waste of time unless you have the deep pockets to defend
them. The flipside is that nowadays patents seem to be less about protecting
truly innovative work, and more about big companies patenting anything
they can get away with, however trivial -  often non-innovative things
that any  half-sensible engineer would have come up with given the
same brief. All this does is stifle competition and feed the lawyers.

On the subject of what you CAN do...
One useful, and very cheap & easy, thing you can do is add some
'hidden' functionality, which can be used to easily prove if someone
has done a direct copy of your code - this is covered by copyright and
should be much easier to take to court.
There are plenty of possibilities, which depend on what interfaces are
on the product - things like obscure button sequences to display a
message or squirt a serial data stream out of a pin.
--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email @spam@listservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\15@232839 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> One way to add some product reverse-engineering protection is to use a
> PLD for logic functions external to the micro. Set its security
> bit(s), in addition to the one in the micro, and then you've got two
> significant hacker barriers. Of course, this only works if the design
> uses substantial non-obvious logic functions...
>
> Mike Hardwick Decade Engineering

I think that it all depends on who the enemy are. In my case they are
smalltime shops with some experience and enough of it to copy a small
design with 25 parts and a PIC and sell it as your own. There are people
who will write code for a PIC in such a role for a small fee, knowing full
well what it is for. In this case, erasing the numbers and setting the
fuses is a good start.

Peter

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\15@233031 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

flavicon
face
>There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off
>copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or
>any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and
>post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is
>evidence that can be used to establish originality.

       Ha! Nice thing! I'll use to do that! ;o)

>The second alternative is to register the design, which will take
>NZ$200-$300 for the full service

       :oO

>Neither of the two above offer the full protection of a patent (but let's
>face it, even the so-called protection of a full patent means nothing
>to a fly-by-night sweatshop). They are, however, substantially less
>expensive and at least show you mean business

       Nice tip to third worlders...


---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

Alexandre Souza
RemoveMEtaitoTakeThisOuTspamterra.com.br
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/pinball/

---8<---Corte aqui---8<----

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonespammitvma.mit.edu


2001\07\16@051339 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off
>copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or
>any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and
>post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is
>evidence that can be used to establish originality.

Another way of doing this I have heard of is to give (or post) it to your
lawyer (probably need to advise them it is coming first) so they can stamp
it with a date of receipt and then hold it for you. This way they are an
independent witness (possibly with more legal clout than you) of the date
concerned.

If your lawyer can then produce the unopened package in court that they have
been holding on your behalf with a date stamp it may be more believable that
the date is correct, and the package has not been tampered with because it
has been held by the independent party.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads


2001\07\19@141656 by Philip Pemberton

flavicon
face
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 at 10:20:57 +0100, Mike Harrison <TakeThisOuTmikeEraseMEspamspam_OUTWHITEWING.CO.UK>
wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Like Apple Computer's Macintosh firmware - if an unused chunk of code is
called it displays the message "Stolen from Apple Computer" on the screen.
Very effective. If someone rips off your code and sells a device that uses
it, then you just walk up to the device, push a few buttons in some weird
combination and the message "STOLEN FROM <suchandsuch>" flashes up on the
LCD (if any). Instant open-and-shut case. A rather effective message hiding
trick is to make the message look like a lookup table - like this

somemessageorother:
   RETLW    (("S" ^ 0xBA) & 0x0F)
   RETLW    (("T" ^ 0xBA) & 0x0F)
...
   RETLW    (("S" ^ 0xBA) & 0xF0) >> 4
   RETLW    (("T" ^ 0xBA) & 0xF0) >> 4

Basically, the letter before the ^ is your data, and the hex number after it
is the encryption key. All you do to decrypt it is:
   MOVLW    counter
   CALL    somemessageorother
   MOVWF    temp0
   MOVLW    counter
   ADDLW    message_length
   CALL    somemessageorother
   MOVWF    temp1
   RLF    temp1,    F
   RLF    temp1,    F
   RLF    temp1,    F
   RLF    temp1,    F
   MOVF    temp0,    W
   ADDWF    temp1,    W
   CALL    put_char_in_w_on_display

There. Easy.

Later.

--
Phil.
RemoveMEphilpemspamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com
http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email listservEraseMEspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\19@141833 by Philip Pemberton

flavicon
face
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 at 10:20:56 +0100, Mike Harrison <EraseMEmikespamWHITEWING.CO.UK>
wrote:

> >> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their =
> designs.
> >
> >
> >One technique that appeals to me is encapsulation
> >in a plastic resin or epoxy;
> Waste of time - normal epoxy is easy to remove with minimal damage -
> unless you find something exotic (i.e expensive) that's hard to
> remove, don't think potting will give you anything else but
> environmental protection!
Anyone here heard of MEK? Turns epoxies into a soft glue like substance
after about a half hour, an hour later and you've got an almost-clean parts
set. Lame...

> >* pot the whole product, good for small devices
> >especially automotive ones.
Only really offers environmental protection

> >* pot a critical circuit or even just a PIC and
> >it's crystal, etc in a tiny metal can, with just
> >a pin header coming out. These tiny cans are cheap
> >and can be board mounted, you see them in many
> >devices now. All the user sees is the main board
> >with the easy stuff, the 'smart" bit is in a little
> >can with its own part number. Plastic cans are
> >available too, they look like those square
> >capacitors. "PIC in a can"?
> Dremel.....
Has no-one seen what Sega did with some of their arcade games? Run two thin,
enamelled, twisted-pair wires round in a spiral, one connected between Vcc
on the board and the Vcc pin, the other to Vss on the board and the Vss pin.
If anyone tries to cut the epoxy with a Dremel, they end up cutting the
wires (or snapping them). If they dunk it in MEK they end up stripping the
varnish off the wires, too (creating a short circuit). Very nasty.

> >* mount the smt chip(s) direct on the board, with a
> >big blob of epoxy over it.
> Easily dissolved
Nitric acid works great (supposedly).

--
Phil.
RemoveMEphilpemEraseMEspamEraseMEbigfoot.com
http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


2001\07\20@041202 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Philip Pemberton wrote:

> > Waste of time - normal epoxy is easy to remove with minimal damage -
> > unless you find something exotic (i.e expensive) that's hard to
> > remove, don't think potting will give you anything else but
> > environmental protection!
> Anyone here heard of MEK? Turns epoxies into a soft glue like substance
> after about a half hour, an hour later and you've got an almost-clean parts
> set. Lame...

What about Polyester? MEK won't dissolve that.
-Roman

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspamspammitvma.mit.edu


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2001 , 2002 only
- Today
- New search...