Post by thread:[OT]: removing numbers from chips

> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs. One technique that appeals to me is encapsulation in a plastic resin or epoxy; * pot the whole product, good for small devices especially automotive ones. * pot a critical circuit or even just a PIC and it's crystal, etc in a tiny metal can, with just a pin header coming out. These tiny cans are cheap and can be board mounted, you see them in many devices now. All the user sees is the main board with the easy stuff, the 'smart" bit is in a little can with its own part number. Plastic cans are available too, they look like those square capacitors. "PIC in a can"? * mount the smt chip(s) direct on the board, with a big blob of epoxy over it. I liked the nitrocellulose comment re the decapsulation with nitric acid, maybe you could pot your product with a small capsule of some reactive agent enclosed. Then if someone tries nitric acid they get a nasty "boom" to discourage them, or maybe it just reacts and eats the metal in the chips as well as the plastic... Any chemists here? ;o) -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

At 09:10 AM 7/13/01 -0700, Dipperstein, Michael wrote: > >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs. > >Though I wouldn't recommend it for the home hobbyist, we patent just about >everything we can. > >A well written patent can protect you from somebody developing a functional >equivalent. That's something that concealing components can't do. How does Joe Public go about this? I've done it in a corporate setting, but that involved three steps. 1: Call patent attourney 2: Discuss idea 3: sign forms I've never gone through, or seen the process up close. -- Dave's Engineering Page: http://www.dvanhorn.org I would have a link to http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?KC6ETE-9 here in my signature line, but due to the inability of sysadmins at TELOCITY to differentiate a signature line from the text of an email, I am forbidden to have it. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> How does Joe Public go about this? > I've done it in a corporate setting, but that involved three steps. There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is evidence that can be used to establish originality. The second alternative is to register the design, which will take NZ$200-$300 for the full service Neither of the two above offer the full protection of a patent (but let's face it, even the so-called protection of a full patent means nothing to a fly-by-night sweatshop). They are, however, substantially less expensive and at least show you mean business -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

>I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs. One way to add some product reverse-engineering protection is to use a PLD for logic functions external to the micro. Set its security bit(s), in addition to the one in the micro, and then you've got two significant hacker barriers. Of course, this only works if the design uses substantial non-obvious logic functions... Mike Hardwick Decade Engineering -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Excellent ideas, and another I have heard is that many bank branches offer a "sealed envelope" service in their bank vault, for a small fee they seal your envelope of legal documents or design papers, stamp it, witness the time and date and store it in their vault. As any patent is only as good as the amount of money you spend in court defending it, systems like this that prove the date of your design can be just as defendable in court even if someone patents it afterward. -Roman Jinx wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > How does Joe Public go about this? > > I've done it in a corporate setting, but that involved three steps. > > There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off > copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or > any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and > post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is > evidence that can be used to establish originality. > > The second alternative is to register the design, which will take > NZ$200-$300 for the full service > > Neither of the two above offer the full protection of a patent (but let's > face it, even the so-called protection of a full patent means nothing > to a fly-by-night sweatshop). They are, however, substantially less > expensive and at least show you mean business -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Most of the world, and recently the USA, all use a 'first to file' issuance of patents. Until recently you could get a USA patent overturned by proving you invented it first (Gordon Gould Laser patents for example. He had a notarized notebook from the late fifties which documented lots of appications for 'coherent light' and he got a retroactive patent on for them, decades after the laser was 'invented' by Bells labs. This 'ambush' patent cost laser manufactures a great deal of retroactive royalties since it was easier to pay than litigate. In summary, a 'sealed envelope' is now next to useless for getting or challenging a patent in the USA. Roman Black wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Excellent ideas, and another I have heard is > that many bank branches offer a "sealed envelope" > service in their bank vault, for a small fee they > seal your envelope of legal documents or design > papers, stamp it, witness the time and date and > store it in their vault. > > As any patent is only as good as the amount of money > you spend in court defending it, systems like this > that prove the date of your design can be just as > defendable in court even if someone patents it > afterward. > -Roman > > Jinx wrote: > > > > > How does Joe Public go about this? > > > I've done it in a corporate setting, but that involved three steps. > > > > There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off > > copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or > > any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and > > post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is > > evidence that can be used to establish originality. > > > > The second alternative is to register the design, which will take > > NZ$200-$300 for the full service > > > > Neither of the two above offer the full protection of a patent (but let's > > face it, even the so-called protection of a full patent means nothing > > to a fly-by-night sweatshop). They are, however, substantially less > > expensive and at least show you mean business > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> file' issuance of patents. Until recently you could get a USA > patent overturned by proving you invented it first (Gordon Gould > > In summary, a 'sealed envelope' is now next to useless for getting > or challenging a patent in the USA. While I can't argue the legal niceties, that does seem unfair to the "average" inventor, who more than likely is poorly funded compared to a corporate that can steamroller in and swipe the product merely by dint of being able to afford the paperwork. It's a shitty old world innit ? -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

>While I can't argue the legal niceties, that does seem unfair to the >"average" inventor, who more than likely is poorly funded compared >to a corporate that can steamroller in and swipe the product merely >by dint of being able to afford the paperwork. It's a shitty old world >innit ? > well we've come a long way from scratching the number off the top of a chip :-) people rarely invent anything anymore, merely use cash and a poorly thought through and administered 'system', instead of gun boats, in an attempt to claim ownership. The patent system, as it stands, is international intellectual piracy on a grand scale, the system originally conceived to stop piracy is now the biggest supporter of it in fact. Your example comes under the same category as companies that go to developing countries and 'patent' all their traditional natural medicine sources....and many other examples... ie, its 'bull'.... a large portion of the world is getting fed up with it and a patent will be worth nothing in a few years, because the blatent abuse/exploitation of the patent system will ultimately drive the majority to reject it's validity in both their physical territory and their ethical values. Both majority corporate and population opinion will be moving to an anti-patent stance unless the patent world cleans it's act up and starts drawing sensible distinctions between 'naturally occuring', 'discovery' , 'invention' and 'created', the whole system is heading for collapse. The parallel is colonisation during the 18th and 19th centuries, a lot of territory was 'patented' and 'ownership' claimed.....eventually it ends in tears.....patenting, when taken to extremes amounts to the same thing, and the end result will be the same also. We are already seeing the beginnings of it with drugs in third world* countries , and it is apparent that the big players are aware of where this will go if they fight their corner too hard and hence capitulated with a compromise. This will prove to be the tip of a very big iceberg. (*=not a label I like, but used for better general understanding) Once something eventually loses general social acceptance, it collapses, no matter what the lawyers and judges think, in fact eventually the elected administration will reflect the view of its population due to political expediancy even if not through true belief in the issue. Graham R.F. Professionals http://www.rfpa.com Radio Amateurs http://www.rfham.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 00:47:01 +1000, you wrote: >> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs. > > >One technique that appeals to me is encapsulation >in a plastic resin or epoxy; Waste of time - normal epoxy is easy to remove with minimal damage - unless you find something exotic (i.e expensive) that's hard to remove, don't think potting will give you anything else but environmental protection! {Quote hidden}>* pot the whole product, good for small devices >especially automotive ones. > >* pot a critical circuit or even just a PIC and >it's crystal, etc in a tiny metal can, with just >a pin header coming out. These tiny cans are cheap >and can be board mounted, you see them in many >devices now. All the user sees is the main board >with the easy stuff, the 'smart" bit is in a little >can with its own part number. Plastic cans are >available too, they look like those square >capacitors. "PIC in a can"? Dremel..... >* mount the smt chip(s) direct on the board, with a >big blob of epoxy over it. Easily dissolved -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:10:04 -0700, you wrote: >>I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their designs. > >Though I wouldn't recommend it for the home hobbyist, we patent just about >everything we can. >A well written patent can protect you from somebody developing a functional >equivalent. That's something that concealing components can't do. Patents are a waste of time unless you have the deep pockets to defend them. The flipside is that nowadays patents seem to be less about protecting truly innovative work, and more about big companies patenting anything they can get away with, however trivial - often non-innovative things that any half-sensible engineer would have come up with given the same brief. All this does is stifle competition and feed the lawyers. On the subject of what you CAN do... One useful, and very cheap & easy, thing you can do is add some 'hidden' functionality, which can be used to easily prove if someone has done a direct copy of your code - this is covered by copyright and should be much easier to take to court. There are plenty of possibilities, which depend on what interfaces are on the product - things like obscure button sequences to display a message or squirt a serial data stream out of a pin. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> One way to add some product reverse-engineering protection is to use a > PLD for logic functions external to the micro. Set its security > bit(s), in addition to the one in the micro, and then you've got two > significant hacker barriers. Of course, this only works if the design > uses substantial non-obvious logic functions... > > Mike Hardwick Decade Engineering I think that it all depends on who the enemy are. In my case they are smalltime shops with some experience and enough of it to copy a small design with 25 parts and a PIC and sell it as your own. There are people who will write code for a PIC in such a role for a small fee, knowing full well what it is for. In this case, erasing the numbers and setting the fuses is a good start. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

>There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off >copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or >any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and >post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is >evidence that can be used to establish originality. Ha! Nice thing! I'll use to do that! ;o) >The second alternative is to register the design, which will take >NZ$200-$300 for the full service :oO >Neither of the two above offer the full protection of a patent (but let's >face it, even the so-called protection of a full patent means nothing >to a fly-by-night sweatshop). They are, however, substantially less >expensive and at least show you mean business Nice tip to third worlders... ---8<---Corte aqui---8<---- Alexandre Souza RemoveMEtaitoTakeThisOuTterra.com.br http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/pinball/ ---8<---Corte aqui---8<---- -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

>There is a cheap option that I use. It does indeed put people off >copying, I've used it so. As soon as possible, put your idea or >any documentation on a prototype in a registered envelope and >post it to yourself. Do not open it when you get it. In NZ this is >evidence that can be used to establish originality. Another way of doing this I have heard of is to give (or post) it to your lawyer (probably need to advise them it is coming first) so they can stamp it with a date of receipt and then hold it for you. This way they are an independent witness (possibly with more legal clout than you) of the date concerned. If your lawyer can then produce the unopened package in court that they have been holding on your behalf with a date stamp it may be more believable that the date is correct, and the package has not been tampered with because it has been held by the independent party. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 at 10:20:57 +0100, Mike Harrison <TakeThisOuTmikeEraseMEspam_OUTWHITEWING.CO.UK> wrote: {Quote hidden}> On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:10:04 -0700, you wrote: > > >>I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their = > designs. > > > >Though I wouldn't recommend it for the home hobbyist, we patent just = > about > >everything we can. > > >A well written patent can protect you from somebody developing a = > functional > >equivalent. That's something that concealing components can't do. > Patents are a waste of time unless you have the deep pockets to defend > them.=20 > The flipside is that nowadays patents seem to be less about protecting > truly innovative work, and more about big companies patenting anything > they can get away with, however trivial - often non-innovative things > that any half-sensible engineer would have come up with given the > same brief. All this does is stifle competition and feed the lawyers. > > On the subject of what you CAN do... > One useful, and very cheap & easy, thing you can do is add some > 'hidden' functionality, which can be used to easily prove if someone > has done a direct copy of your code - this is covered by copyright and > should be much easier to take to court. > There are plenty of possibilities, which depend on what interfaces are > on the product - things like obscure button sequences to display a > message or squirt a serial data stream out of a pin.=20 Like Apple Computer's Macintosh firmware - if an unused chunk of code is called it displays the message "Stolen from Apple Computer" on the screen. Very effective. If someone rips off your code and sells a device that uses it, then you just walk up to the device, push a few buttons in some weird combination and the message "STOLEN FROM <suchandsuch>" flashes up on the LCD (if any). Instant open-and-shut case. A rather effective message hiding trick is to make the message look like a lookup table - like this somemessageorother: RETLW (("S" ^ 0xBA) & 0x0F) RETLW (("T" ^ 0xBA) & 0x0F) ... RETLW (("S" ^ 0xBA) & 0xF0) >> 4 RETLW (("T" ^ 0xBA) & 0xF0) >> 4 Basically, the letter before the ^ is your data, and the hex number after it is the encryption key. All you do to decrypt it is: MOVLW counter CALL somemessageorother MOVWF temp0 MOVLW counter ADDLW message_length CALL somemessageorother MOVWF temp1 RLF temp1, F RLF temp1, F RLF temp1, F RLF temp1, F MOVF temp0, W ADDWF temp1, W CALL put_char_in_w_on_display There. Easy. Later. -- Phil. RemoveMEphilpemTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 at 10:20:56 +0100, Mike Harrison <EraseMEmikeWHITEWING.CO.UK> wrote: > >> >I would like to hear what other PIClisters use to protect their = > designs. > > > > > >One technique that appeals to me is encapsulation > >in a plastic resin or epoxy; > Waste of time - normal epoxy is easy to remove with minimal damage - > unless you find something exotic (i.e expensive) that's hard to > remove, don't think potting will give you anything else but > environmental protection! Anyone here heard of MEK? Turns epoxies into a soft glue like substance after about a half hour, an hour later and you've got an almost-clean parts set. Lame... > >* pot the whole product, good for small devices > >especially automotive ones. Only really offers environmental protection > >* pot a critical circuit or even just a PIC and > >it's crystal, etc in a tiny metal can, with just > >a pin header coming out. These tiny cans are cheap > >and can be board mounted, you see them in many > >devices now. All the user sees is the main board > >with the easy stuff, the 'smart" bit is in a little > >can with its own part number. Plastic cans are > >available too, they look like those square > >capacitors. "PIC in a can"? > Dremel..... Has no-one seen what Sega did with some of their arcade games? Run two thin, enamelled, twisted-pair wires round in a spiral, one connected between Vcc on the board and the Vcc pin, the other to Vss on the board and the Vss pin. If anyone tries to cut the epoxy with a Dremel, they end up cutting the wires (or snapping them). If they dunk it in MEK they end up stripping the varnish off the wires, too (creating a short circuit). Very nasty. > >* mount the smt chip(s) direct on the board, with a > >big blob of epoxy over it. > Easily dissolved Nitric acid works great (supposedly). -- Phil. RemoveMEphilpemEraseMEEraseMEbigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Waste of time - normal epoxy is easy to remove with minimal damage - > > unless you find something exotic (i.e expensive) that's hard to > > remove, don't think potting will give you anything else but > > environmental protection! > Anyone here heard of MEK? Turns epoxies into a soft glue like substance > after about a half hour, an hour later and you've got an almost-clean parts > set. Lame... What about Polyester? MEK won't dissolve that. -Roman -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu